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 Post subject: PJGH 'Lumpy Glide' Wax
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Formerly entitled: 'Ello 'Ello ... What's going on 'ere then?

Something's brewing :shock:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3904.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3909.jpg

... just starting to form solids:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3905.jpg

... so back into the double boiler, re-liquified and left to set:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3911.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3910.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... F39012.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3914.jpg

... closed up:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3916.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3915.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3917.jpg

... neat little pad to keep with the wax:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3919.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3920.jpg

... kept overnight in the fridge and checked for consistency:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3921.jpg

Who wants some more? On a real car? 8-[

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Last edited by pjgh on Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Location: On full throttle...along way from where I started off
...what is it?
You been playing with chemicals again? :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Looking forward to the 'trials'. :D


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:24 pm 
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I love those tubs! Comeon then, lets see it in action. You know when you boil it, do you lose anything if that makes sense.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Looks like honey :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Remember this?

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From: http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/forum/vie ... php?t=7552

Well, that really got the hairs on the back of my neck prickling in case he was looking over my shoulder because even back then I was casually tinkering with blends. For about a year now I have been making up little amounts (usually when I'm feeling "happy" quite late at night :oops: ) to try to get something I would call stable - by stable, I mean not a rock of wax and not slush. Getting to that point is very easy ... and very difficult because once you get there, you're still left with a "wax" which isn't at all usable. Fine tuning and fine tinkering ... and the other night I got to a point that I had something stable, repeatable and usable, albeit on my test plates which are metal but nevertheless show up how the wax works, how it dries, cures, removes and what residual beading is like.

No cars have been harmed in the making of this wax ... yet :twisted:

That was a eureka moment - I have a wax which is made up of carnauba wax, beeswax, paraffin wax, linseed oil and turpentine. The formulation is mine - I will not divulge it and, please forgive me, I will not give out secrets, formulas or advice by PM. I came to this point by following advice and guidelines I have found quite readily on the internet and perfected it to my liking by trial and error ... and Guinness :lol:

Last night was a leap of faith - I've made up small batches before, but I thought I'd go the whole hog and pretty much use up the gear I've got in one monster batch of around 300ml of product. There was a slight deviation from the formula last night, but it was worth it - the consistency was just right; almost like Swissvax, but not quite as dry.

So, where do I go from here?

Well, the trial on a real car was an eye opener - this is far from right as a usable wax, for automotive use :cry: You'll see what in a minute, but it might not be as bad as it first appears.

The wax itself is good - it is "pure"-ish, but I would like that hit of sweet carnauba to come through much stronger and for that, I need to drop some of the solvent smell. I have a good hint that citrus oils are the way to go and will be trying that next, whenever I get some new gear in which will be after a good sweep of the market for other ingredients. A friend's girlfriend (in the formulation business) said to go for Turpenoid, rather than turpentine which will not have the same solventy smell, but I gather that can lead to a mushy texture - that's okay, I can balance that up in the wax and perhaps let it out with oil, for which I want to get away from linseed; citrus oil seems the right lead, but will overpower the scent I want to dominate. Some choices ... you can see why Dodo Juice made a small range. On that note I do want to look into candelilla wax. While an orange oil based wax and a candelillia content wax might seem like straightforward copying, let me cite Charles Colton: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". Another "out there" consideration was for clove oil and albas oil since I have an awful cold at the moment. I also need to look into dyes.

For now, again, I have a stable formula. That formula will break as soon as I introduce a new ingredient and we begin a fresh round of batches trying to find the right formula for a number of permutations with new ingredients. My goal is for a "pure" wax along the lines of Supernatural ... I know ... aim high :D If I get close, I might have access to some lab gear where cooling and consistency can be controlled - I'll have to see how that pans out. If I go down the line of using strong scented oils and solvents, well ... that might take me down another route for the next period, but I will always try to get back to this formula and perfect it by dropping out the unwanted scents and ingredients.

So, you want to see some pictures on real automotive paint, don't you? :twisted:

Yes, it's the black car ... and yes, it's the boot panel :wink:

Washed at the weekend, it has a light dusting ...

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3922.jpg

... spritzed over with Serious Performance Quick Detailer (lubricious :cool: ) and wiped clean with a EuroW towel:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3923.jpg

This is the "before".

Next, I polished the panel using ValetPro House Polish. I think this is just about to hit the market, so it's a little sneaky peek :wink: I'm sure Greg won't mind, but if he does ... I'm in trouble :shock: This polish initially appears to be a PDI glaze, but you quickly find it has a peculiar ability to massage away light defects like glints and even light swirl marks - the polish is very fine indeed, not at all scratchy and couldn't be heard working. Such a fine polish left me with a visibly clearer finish and one which had me looking twice to try to find the original defects :? Nope ... gone ... magic, although a little dusty.

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3924.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3925.jpg

... after the polish:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3926.jpg

... closer?

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3927.jpg

At this point, I got so excited I forgot to take pictures ... I had applied the wax in circular motions and it went on very oily indeed. I guess this is the paraffin wax (hint) which helps the product not to flash cure and gives a really pleasant, leisurely work time. The downside is it takes an age to cure.

... and upon removal seemed to leave a rash which I was not overly happy with:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3928.jpg

I'd not seen this in testing, but paint is somewhat different to metal. I am not overly concerned about this rash - it is annoying, since I really expected it to glide off effortlessly (what an optimist :lol: ), but it does need a two stage removal. Using a folded microfibre, go over the panel removing the worst of the cured product. This does come off easily enough, although I did wonder whether it had bonded well ... and then re-fold the microfibre and buff over from one side of the panel to the other so as to catch all the potential rash spots and keep them moving towards the other edge of the panel.

Good so far ...

... to get a glimpse of the product in action, I applied a second coat so that I could take pictures:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3929.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3930.jpg

Buffed:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3931.jpg

"Mirror Finish" :cool:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3936.jpg

You want to see beading, don't you?

Spritzed down with clean tap water:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3937.jpg

Closer?

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3938.jpg

Long oblong beads from the water simply falling off with the lightest of touches:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3939.jpg

Damn! What are those shadows?

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3942.jpg

Hmmm ... wipe off and start try again:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3943.jpg

... nope, they're still there :evil:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3944.jpg

Spritzed with chilled water and buffed like blazes, the issue can be made to go away.

Perfect :cool:

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3949.jpg

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/gallery_albums/en ... CF3948.jpg

If the paint turned pink and covered in yellow spots overnight, I wouldn't be surprised :twisted:

I have my suspicions as to what that spotting is about. I think I can remedy that in the next trial. I will keep this jar for prosperity as my first real prototype. I think I'd like to perfect this particular mix before moving on - at least I can draw a line under it as a solid version and then veer off into other avenues. I want to see how that treatment fairs after a contact wash - whether the beading continues, or whether that spotting returns. I'll certainly be watching you it goes over the next few weeks and when I get some fresh ingredients in, maybe the right conditions will prevail mid-summer for some further mad science :wink: I think I have version 0.9 and with fresh ingredients could reach version 1.0 - I'll follow other avenues with 1.1.x and 1.2.x, but 1.0.x will always be the "pure" central avenue with leafy palm green on one side and orange trees on the other :wink:

'til then ...

Oh ... anyone else thinking of trying this, read up, scour the internet, cover your worktops with newspaper BEFORE mucking about with double boilers and get some Cillit Bang spray in ... and an apron :idea: Beyond that, you're on your own ... sorry to be a spoil-sport, but I might actually be able to make something of this. I've gleaned all this from what I've found and from experimentation - if you're so inclined, you'll get there too. As I get further down the line and hopefully get towards something I might like others to try out, I may well drop a load more hints. At the moment, I'm going to keep my cards close to my chest - I trust you understand.

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/#detailing


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Ruler of the Fluffy
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GIZTO29 wrote:
You know when you boil it, do you lose anything if that makes sense.


The benefit of using a glass jar like this, or ramekins as I have been using so far, is that you don't end up having to pour the wax - in early trials that was a real pain since the wax would instantly harden on the cool surface and give poor consistency ... and it would drop considerably in the middle as the hot centre cooled. Allowing a warmed jar to naturally cool with the product leads to a better overall consistency, although it does drop a little. Getting the cooling right is one of the battles and that comes with practice.

Regarding loss of product by boiling ... well, you don't actually boil it. The initial melt can take up to half an hour - don't rush it. Allow the heat to do the job and then convection to blend the waxes. You then add the liquid ingredients. I have found that once the wax first starts to harden, get it back in the boiler and re-melt it. I don't know what this does chemically, but it seems to lead to a more stable end product. Perhaps this does evaporate more solvent ... I don't know, scientifically. There is a vapour which comes off and it is heady - you need a well ventilated room and you need an electric hob; NO GAS!!!

Temperature? Low. Heat setting 1 in enough water to allow your pot, ramekin or jar to just float. If you get bubbles in the pan which disturb the pot, it's too high.

Cooling - set aside in a warm room to naturally cool. Cover it - cats, insects and even partners might become inquisitive and end up ruining your batch with a paw print, fingerprint or their own corpses :roll: Don't pop it in the fridge until it is cooled. Another hint might well be to use a vibration plate. I have yet to try this, but my next batch might well cool on top of our somewhat noisy vibrating fridge/freezer :idea:

I think that'll do for now :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Wow Paul how exciting is this? Really looking forward to the future updates, have you spoken to Ben at Rubbishboys at all? He would be an interesting chap to discuss commercial blends with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Got a White transit connect if you want to try anything out on it Paul , there's nowt to spoil , Mark !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Location: On full throttle...along way from where I started off
[-o< dont turn pink and spotty, its really shiny!

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"I just blew my mind. And I blew the world's mind." - Usain Bolt


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Location: burnley,lancashire
get to the back of the queue mark,there's a rough silver connect needs some lovin' first :lol: .
i love threads like these and now i'm really looking forward to some updates.i know nowt about all the chemistry that must go into making your own wax but i notice you say you used turpentine in your mix paul,was it pure gum turpentine as i find this to have almost no solvent smell when i use it when painting-just a thought :D
come on, get mixing - we need some samples of this 'paulo mint wax' :lol:

cheers,mick


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Guys - thank you for the comments. I really did wonder whether this was the right time to unveil what I've been secretly working away at, but seeing MY wax in a nice jar really got me very excited and somewhat carried away.

You can see from the residual shadowing after water has hit the paint that I still have some work to do with this batch. I did slightly adjust the formula for this batch and I am certain I know what went wrong with that now.

Mick - good tip regarding the turps. No, I've been using sort of bog standard brush cleaner :oops: There's not a huge amount in the mix, but I can detect it. Perhaps it's more a case that I know it's there. I think I'll be moving onto more rounded solvents, but I have a few leads for potential replacements that I will want to try out.

Regarding the mint wax ... it think a drop of olbas oil, a drop of clove oil and some palm oil might well mask the solvents and make a really heady mix. My problem is getting half a drop for the small amounts I make up ... which often got re-mixed so as not to waste product with carefully calculated calculations and then a fresh batch to repeat the formula I thought I had, which often I didn't.

freon warrior wrote:
Wow Paul how exciting is this? Really looking forward to the future updates, have you spoken to Ben at Rubbishboys at all? He would be an interesting chap to discuss commercial blends with.


I have read Ben's lengthy post and I followed some excellent hints from BryansBestWax, a thread which seems to have dried up a little. I guess he got about as far as I have.

On the one hand, this marks the end of an era - I have a wax that works (give, or take the minor tweak to get that spotting sorted) and from here that wax will become something very different with changes to ingredients and I guess if I get technique right and learn something along the way I can return to this formula and perfect my "Supernatural".

On the other hand this marks just the beginning, if I can push through ... but the next stage is a repeat, just with different ingredients.

I will be the first to say that this is not right for others to try and not right for me to put my name to, even among friends. I will get there, though. I think I'll be nobbling Ben for some hints as I go into the next phase - I've a lot of catching up to do before I'll be anywhere near where he got.

I think a shortcut into more commercial products would be really useful, but after saying that I'm keeping my research close to my chest I wonder how worthy I am of someone else's potential golden eggs. I am a little uncomfortable with keeping quiet, very much an "open" kind of guy, but I am sure you guys understand. You can tell that's on my mind, can't you? :lol:

Your encouragement has really made me smile and has certainly pushed me to go further. Inside, I'm jumping up and down!

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http://www.pjgh.co.uk/#detailing


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Very interesting Paul, looks like a lot of hard work but fun with it.
You know how Zymol made waxes for individual brands and cars? I look forward to the limited edition Saab version. Can you make it cherry flavour please :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:12 pm 
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madmoggy wrote:
You know how Zymol made waxes for individual brands and cars? I look forward to the limited edition Saab version. Can you make it cherry flavour please :lol:


Surely it should be lingonberry? I can't see marinated herring scent taking off :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:13 pm 
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if you want some pure gum turpentine i have plenty i can send you paul.the brush cleaner stuff isn't turpentine, it'll more than likely be more white spirit based (hence the smell)- turps has become a generic term now that covers most spirit based thinners.when i use white spirit for wiping down and degreasing prior to painting it leaves a 'milky' residue when it dries,maybe not good for your new wax but i know less than nothing :lol: .good luck in the new venture,keep us updated

cheers,mick


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