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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
Hi Guys,

I have developed this product, with the assistance of a chemist, for the commercial vehicle market, but may well have use in the general car cleaning market.

MadClean Mad-Max has been designed to provide a heavy duty solution for commercial, agricultural and industrial use vehicles. A product that provides a quick and thorough clean, in less time than conventional cleans.

• High Foam formula
• Guarantees a spotless, streak free finish
• High performance removes traffic film, dirt and grease
• Effortlessly lifts dirt and contaminants
• Concentrated formula 50:1 for light 10:1 for heavy cleaning
• Simple spray on, let dwell and rinse off
• Environmentally Clean Product
• Reduces Water Use, as no product residue left

Do you think that it has a market in general car care?

More details www.facebook.com/MadClean


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:43 pm 
Welcome to the CYC Forum.

I'm sure that the commercial valeters here will have their thoughts upon your product. But here's my initial thoughts.....

High foam.... foam isn't always needed, it's lubrication and cleaning power that are important.

removes traffic film, dirt and grease....... not any use for car users, UNLESS they are stripping back all the protective coatings to bare paintwork. Then they would have used All purpose Cleaner to do this.

concentrated formula....many APC's can be diluted down to 1 part APC, 99 parts water. So your product isn't that concentrated.

Spray on, dwell, rinse off.... no different to most other products.

Enviromentally clean..... if you mean a product that rapidly bio-degrades as opposed to citrus oil based, then this is a positive. However, if you need 10 times the product, compared to a citrus based APC, then this isn't so attractive.

Reduces water as no residue is left....... you have already said that you have to spray, leave to dwell and then rinse off, so I cant see that this saves water!

To be honest, I can't see that your product offers anything different to the commercial market and offers nothing to the home car user....sorry.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
willington wrote:
Welcome to the CYC Forum.

I'm sure that the commercial valeters here will have their thoughts upon your product. But here's my initial thoughts.....

High foam.... foam isn't always needed, it's lubrication and cleaning power that are important. We have chosen to develop as a foaming formula, to allow better contact time, and visible coverage of the vehicle

removes traffic film, dirt and grease....... not any use for car users, UNLESS they are stripping back all the protective coatings to bare paintwork. Then they would have used All purpose Cleaner to do this. As mentioned this is mainly targeted at the commercial goods vehicle market, which rarely have waxes or coatings, as they are cleaned frequently, so not ideal for cars where waxes are present, unless they want to remove the previously applied coatings

concentrated formula....many APC's can be diluted down to 1 part APC, 99 parts water. So your product isn't that concentrated. The product will dilute down to over 100:1 for light cleaning, however as aimed at goods vehicles, we state higher levels as generally more soiling is present

Spray on, dwell, rinse off.... no different to most other products. No argument here, not trying to reinvent the wheel, simply make it more efficient

Enviromentally clean..... if you mean a product that rapidly bio-degrades as opposed to citrus oil based, then this is a positive. However, if you need 10 times the product, compared to a citrus based APC, then this isn't so attractive. The trick we use is an active agents more commonly found in disinfectants, that attack the soiling, along with mild salts that break down stronger bonds. In it's diluted form offers no Environmental Impact, as all parts dissolve in water to there common parts

Reduces water as no residue is left....... you have already said that you have to spray, leave to dwell and then rinse off, so I cant see that this saves water! Commonly in the haulage market, a vehicle is pre-sprayed, then sprayed with a TFR, cleaned using buckets of water and detergent, then washed down thoroughly to remove any TFR residue. That process uses significantly more water

To be honest, I can't see that your product offers anything different to the commercial market and offers nothing to the home car user....sorry.
Thank you for your comments, and i take on board your opinion, and understand that it would be restricted in the car market for general use.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:41 pm 
Thank you for expanding upon your Post and providing further explanations.

I am concerned that you are using Salts. However mild they may be, they can cause corrosion and can bleach unprotected paint. As you have said, commercial vehicles are washed far more frequently, and this will give cause for concern over time.

for how long a period have you tested your product on vehicle panels to assess the long-term effects? What ambient temperature range can the product be safely and effectively applied and also have you considered the temperature of the painted panel? Does your product meet all requirements of the Ground Pollution Act?

My apologies for asking all these questions....but they are important factors for the end-user.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
Not a problem, i will speak to my chemist and come back to you shortly.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:42 pm 
I had a couple of more thoughts about your product....

When a product foams, not all the product is actually making contact with bodywork (only say a maximum of 40% will be in contact). Therefore 60% is wasted.

Additonally, due to the high foaming action, when rinsed, there would be masses of foam on the ground and difficult to reduce to workable levels for polluted water containment.

Therefore the product isn't as efficient as say a liquid cleaner, no foaming action but with a high viscosity so it clings to the vehicle. As for an aid to seeing where it's applied....just add a dye to the product to make it clearly visible.

I would have to disagree with you about th level of contamination on a car, as opposed to a commercial vehicle. Whilst a commercial vehicle does more mileage, a car is lower to the ground and receives more dirt to the bodywork. A commercial vehicle will get more muck on the underside of the chasis.

A foam will not work on the underside UNLESS it has extreme viscosity.

Whilst your idea is good, there are other alternatives on the market which can achieve all and more which you have described.... ie Permanon Hecta (for organics) and Omega (for inorganics). These can strip off a car's ceramic hardcoat sealant, at a 5% solution in less than 10 seconds!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:43 pm 
I tried the link you gave for your Website and searched Google....it doesn't work.

As for your Facebook page, there is NOT ONE photo of it being used upon Commercial vehicles...only cars for which you agree that it isn't suitable for! Indeed, there is one photo of a landrover being snowfoamed INSIDE a car showroom!

I would strongly advise you to be VERY careful about your advertising, as it is misleading and therefore contravenes Trading and Advertising Standards regulations.

Additionally, as this is a commercial product, you should also be supplying a Chemical safety data sheet under the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations (COSHH)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:46 pm 
Offline
Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
I do enjoy the war and peace responses. ](*,)

I have developed a product, I have not stated that I am selling at present, purely seeking advice if suitable for the car cleaning market.

The facebook page is new and yet to upload further information and images, i would invite you to keep an eye out for these.

I am well aware of the requirement for MSDS, which will suffice, which i have for every product we stock or supply.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:01 pm 
You are selling it and the two variations of the foam lance...your facebook page says so. You don't get over 100 'likes' by not selling anything!

You have an interesting product, very niche market. You won't find any foam that has TFR in it for good reason and Detailers just won't use it for the same reason....it will either strip off any protective coating or leave streaks.

If I were cleaning a large commercial vehicle with a large amount of crud on it, I would use a strong shampoo mixture with added APC in it....spray it on, leave to dwell and then rinse off. This overcomes any concerns about TFR, salts or streaks in the paintwork


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:18 pm 
Offline
Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
The likes are all my colleagues from my business network, who i asked to give me leads into commercial markets when the product is ready.

We are on the 8th generation development product so far, and will have the final finished this week. I have taken on board your comments, and have dropped the salt, and also the primary foamer, and instead used a rheological additive to allow flow coverage, so that there is little or no waste. There is also a non-ionic surfactant (detergent) added in the product to release the soiling from the surface, by way of breaking the surface tension.

The coating is sprayed onto the vehicle, used with or without a foamer, allowed to dwell, and then simply rinsed off.

Then design criteria is simple. A silver bullet design. A single product that will clean in a single application, yet be 100% environmentally sound, with no affect to the materials it is applied to. :idea:

When we have it, I would welcome you to look over the information, and test the product for yourself.

Ben


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:40 pm 
I will be delighted to look over the data sheet specifications. I will add, that I will be using an expert (Eminent chemical scientist - above PHd level), my brother, to analsye the technical specs and provide his opinions.

As for using the product, this wouldn't be suitable for my car...it's a convertible with a fabric roof. The cost of replacing the proofing is over £30. If your product stains the fabric,and I had to use a dye to restore the colour, another £20. To replace the fabric roof itself is close on £1000.....I don't even put my car into an auto car wash as it can inflict huge amounts of damage to wing mirrors, roof and paintwork, let alone use an untested product by an unknown manufacturer with an unknown track record. So thanks for your offer, but I won't be using your product.

Detailers are very fussy about products we use. We have a products tested section in the Forum and you will see how objective we are.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:44 pm 
Hi Ben, in the interests of observational and, hopefully for you useful points, your claims about dilution rates are ludicrous!

You can't dilute something, which will then be diluted even further by an unquantifiable amount of water when applied by a hose or pressure washer.

You should only dilute a product to manufacturers suggested ratios if applying in a measured way i.e. by bucket, manual pressure sprayer etc where the ratios can be accurately measured which defeats your unique selling point.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:06 pm 
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Sponge

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm
Posts: 7
Hi Alistair,

I get your point, but as stated in the last thread, the foaming action has now been removed. This as you state is an unknown variable, and therefore a risk for dilutions.

We are instead opting for a spray on treatment, which ensures correct dilutions.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:17 pm 
What I believe Torque is saying is:

If the correct dilution rates are to be applied, it matters not if foaming or without foam, you would have to pre-mix it in a seperate container first.

You would then not be able to use the hose pipe spray method for application (unless you use a pump) direct from that measured dilution container.

or

If you intend to apply your product via a pressure washer you can't pre-dilute your product...an amount of neat product would be in the lance bottle and the ratio to which the product would be diluted would be determined by the bar pressure of the machine, lance nozzle apperture and water flow rate per minute.

or

pre-mix to the selected ratio and then apply it by a hand pump sprayer. This being the only practical method of spray application which ensures the correct dilution rates....exactly what the 'hand car wash' do with their diluted TFR.


The only alternative is to hand apply your cleaning product using a measured dilution by bucket/sponge.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:25 pm 
Quote:
I do enjoy the war and peace responses. ](*,)


My words were never intented to be 'hostile'. They were an honest analysis and critique (which you asked for) of the product you described.

Just like the science you applied in creating the product, there is a science behind their application and uses. Even on this Forum, we have seen numerous new products fall 'flat on their faces' because their uses and/or capability didn't meet their claimed expectations. Indeed, one such product was a 'waterless wash' which was anything other than that, with a single wash product cost in excess of over £5 per car!

To quote 'Dragons Den' - "what research have you done, who are your main competition and what is your Unique Selling Point?'. If your product is better than the competition's alternatives, cheaper than alternatives and easier to use than the alternatives, then you have a product which will do well.

I wish you luck.


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